Celebrating Life, Faith, and Good Beer

Teenagers, Sex, and the Church

Posted by Christian on Sep 17th, 2009 in Religion | 69 comments

There’s an awful lot of noise over the results of a new study to be released in the next issue of the journal Reproductive Health. In it, the survey found that:

U.S. states whose residents have more conservative religious beliefs on average tend to have higher rates of teenagers giving birth, a new study suggests. (MSNBC story)

Looking at the top 10 states, according to the survey, it’s not all that difficult to argue with this conclusion. The top 10 states in teen pregnancy are, in order: Mississippi, New Mexico, Texas, Arkansas, Arizona, Oklahoma, Nevada, Tennessee, Kentucky, and Georgia. Of those states, only AZ, NM, and NV don’t register in the top 12 most religious states.

This should be sounding alarm bells in the heads of every church-goer who reads this. The simple fact is this…..

…..the Church’s current approach to discussing sex with teenagers is not working. Period.

What’s the common consensus church position on teens and sex? Simple.

1) Don’t do it.

2) Save it for marriage.

That’s it.

Now, as parents, what is the quickest way to get your kids to do something? Tell them not to do it. Trite as it sounds, I would be body parts that that’s at least part of what’s going on here. However, I believe there’s something deeper going on here, and we, as adults, parents, and leaders in the church, bear the responsibility for it.

I don’t know any parent that looks forward to having “the Talk” with their kids. I don’t. I’ve got 3, including a 14 year old daughter who just recently has her first boyfriend. The thought of having that talk with her frightens the crap out of me. I’m sooooo incredibly thankful that my wife has begun that conversation with my 14 year old.

I think that, in the church, that same attitude prevails. We’re so scared to have that conversation that our advice to the teens in the church body is simply “Don’t!” or some other equally empty platitude.

Ok…deep breath….

The Church needs to fundamentally rethink its approach to teens and sex. The behavior modification (Just Say NO) method is antiquated and ineffective. We must go beyond abstinence pledges and purity rings and begin to develop a well rounded approach….and, yes, this means we need to start talking about things like safe sex.

Now some will say “isn’t that just encouraging them to have sex?” No, it’s not. I once heard someone say “A condom is like a seatbelt….it may not be the hand of God that saves you, but it significantly improves your odds!”

Now, we teach our kids how to do everything else safely, even those things we don’t like them doing, so I question why sex is different? Part of it, I believe, is because we’re scared to talk to them about it. But we need to stop pretending that kids don’t have sex…. we all need to move out of the state of denial and back into the reality based community.

We also have to do a better job at explaining why. Going beyond scripture and diving deep into the “icky” issues, such as the emotional consequences not only for them, but for the other person as well. We need to do better in helping them to develop a strong sense of self-esteem and respect not only for themselves, but for others.

TV and movies portray sex as ‘no big deal’ and, for some, it may never be a big deal. But I truly believe that the Church fails the teens in their congregations when they ignore the deeper and more difficult issues surrounding sex and instead, stick their fingers in their years and shout “Just say NO!”

We also have to be better about counseling them when they DO have sex. We need to cast off the attitude that teens who have sex are not really “Christian” or they’re “dirty” or they’re a “bad influence”. Shaming them is not going to solve anything. In fact, it’s only going to drive them from the church, drive them from their parents, and make them less likely to talk about things or seek advice when they’re scared or in trouble. We need to remember the story of Jesus and the adulterous woman at the well…. “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” One by one they all left until she had no more accusers. Jesus then told her he doesn’t condemn her, loved her, and sent her out with a “Go and sin no more.” We, as adults, should learn from this story.

As a parent, and as an adult leader in our Church’s youth ministry, the prospect of opening this can of worms is a little intimidating. Not because of what the students will think, but because of what the parents would think.

Teens today have access to more information than any previous generation. If we don’t open this dialogue with them, it’s almost guaranteed they’ll get bad information…particularly from friends and the internet. We all want them to wait until they’re physically, emotionally, and spiritually ready….but if we don’t talk to them, how will they know when they are?

It’s time for us, as adults in the Church, to stop being scared. The teenage years are tough enough, and it’s time for us to walk with them and guide them into adulthood and stop treating them exclusively like children.

Nikki in AZ

this is great Christian! thanks!
http://www.sendoutcards.com/40334 charlottesal

Let’s not forget that sex releases chemicals that make one seem happy, that is easily confused with love emotions. That needs to be explained to kids as well.

I laugh when people say ‘just say no”. I tell my kids to do stuff all the time and they don’t do that, what makes me think my telling them not to … makes them NOT do it? I would rather arm them with the information they need and negate the false information they get from their peers.

Not explaining to them leaves them in a bad position and subject to prey.
Brad Jackson

The other thing I’ve noticed is that parents seem to think that sex is something that is only between them and their child. To seek help from someone outside the immediate family to talk to a kid about sex is ok, and honestly is more effective sometimes then keeping it between child and parent. The main factor behind the ineffective approach is fear. Stop being afraid of sex. And if a kid is going to have sex it’d be much better if they did it safe. Period.
Jeff

You said:
Now, we teach our kids how to do everything else safely, even those things we don’t like them doing…

Like what?
Carrie

Christian-
One of the things that I do as part of my job is help to write the sex education curriculum for my district. You hit the nail right on the head here… kids need to be educated. Talking about sex is not a one time ‘event’- it is a committment to talk with your kids about all the issues that surround it. I believe that kids who understand what sex is, and what the consequences are, will make good choices. We have had a huge increase in sexually transmitted diseases in our district because kids thought that if they had oral or anal sex, it ‘wasn’t really sex’ and they were safe- just because they couldn’t get pregnant. Good luck to you in this journey. It will be a hard one, but I believe that God will walk with you every step of the way.
C
Kate

I remember my Mother-In-Law when her daughter had her first serious boyfriend, at 17, saying, “I Hope he’s a nice boy.” “He might be a nice boy but you were that age once, weren’t you?” She had gotten married at 18! I had already had the ‘talk’ with Melanie, because I wanted her to be safe, and couldn’t STAND the denial. I began talking to my girls years ago, to make it easier, hopefully, for them to come to me, if and when they need to. I want them to follow a path that’s pure, but I want them, most of all to own their inborn power.
http://csalafia.wordpress.com csalafia

Ride bikes, drive, ride motorcycles, play football, dive into pools, walk to school unattended, ride ATVs, ride skateboards….for starters. Any more specifics depend on the parent in question.

Some would argue that some of these are necessary…true….but that doesn’t mean parents have to like it. Sports and recreational activities, especially physical contact sports, typically give most parents heartburn.
http://csalafia.wordpress.com csalafia

Thanks Carrie!

I remember the interview you gave on that…..I may hit you up some time in the future and pick your brain on this one.

I completely agree that it’s not a one time event, simply because kids with come to different levels of understanding throughout their development, and truly in their teen years. A 13yo is so different than even a 14yo.

As parents we need to stop being scared of anything that’s difficult or uncomfortable…. our childrens’ lives truly depend on it!

Thanks again for all your support!
http://csalafia.wordpress.com csalafia

Exactly.

Charlotte writes for a women’s health blog and she says you would not believe the questions that, very obviously, teenage girls ask about sex. It makes it painfully clear that parents are NOT doing their jobs and talking with their kids. These are usually the parents that get the most upset at schools that offer a sex ed course. (ask my friend Carrie, being the Kyrene superintendent she’s caught more than her fair share of grief.)

Honesty and opening lines of communication will go further in helping kids develop safe, and healthy, attitudes towards sex.
http://csalafia.wordpress.com csalafia

Kate,

Sounds like you’re on the right path here… open communication, expressing your desires but allowing them to own it instead of it being “Mom said so!”.

That’s awesome!
Tiffany

Hmmm….was thinking this would turn into an interesting debate…guess not!
http://csalafia.wordpress.com csalafia

I know, I thought the same thing.

I guess my 30 daily readers aren’t into it that much.. lol.
Dean Richardson

An alternative reading of these stats are that in the conservative areas of the country the sanctity of life is remarkably powerful and the message against abortion has penetrated these young minds and fewer killings are taking place. Are there statistics to back up that possible perspective. Honestly, if that is correct, I would call that a big WIN for the kingdom. Sin happens all over the place, what people do with it to make things right is where the real challenge is.
http://www.clairegriffinsblog.blogspot.com Jordan Griffin

Christian,

Blog posts like this remind me how much I love and care about you not only as my friend, but also as another leader for our youth. You hit the nail on the head with this subject. When I was a teenager, I remember my youth group doing a series on “the untouchables.” This was a 4 week series on things that the church never really goes into depth with. We had to get parent signatures that it was ok if we talked about this with their kids, and this stuck me as kind of crazy. I felt like God was being censored. I appreciate your point of view and it really reminded me of Mike Gizarrdo at ATF last year…

Kudos again man, and I agree 100% with you…perhaps we can work this into our new Underground stuff.
Bob

Christian….I will agree with you that parents need to discuss these things openly with their children. This should not be part of the church curriculum. Teens should be taught what is wrong and should be told of the consequences. They need to know the consequences. Purity rings, saving themselves for marriage is a beautiful thing that should be promoted still. I know there are a lot of young women that are very proud to wear their purity rings. It has also become ok now to admit you are a virgin. When we were young and if you said you were a virgin, you’d be ridiculed. We need to continue the promotion of these positive things. Maybe the church should look at a way to help parents discuss these issues with their teens. What’s next? Handing out brochures with the top rated abortion clinics in their area?
http://csalafia.wordpress.com csalafia

Dean,

While I think you’d be hard pressed to find people who would disagree that reducing the numbers and impact of abortion, particularly among the 18-24 yo demographic, the question is do we want this to be our “end all-be all” metric?

IMO, focusing solely on abortion is short sighted. What would it be like if we, as the Church, raised and gave our kids a comprehensive and balanced education regarding sex? My bet is that we’d see the numbers and impact drop even further. THAT would be a HUGE victory for the Kingdom… teaching our kids well so that they never have to face that decision.

Just celebrating fewer abortions (i’m not sure of the statistics in more conservative areas, maybe that’ll be a subject for a future post) while seeming to downplay the impact of teenage pregnancy/motherhood is missing the point. I don’t believe that was your intent.

Having a child can dramatically derail a teen’s life. Teen parents have higher dropout rates which translates to fewer going to college, getting educated, and creating opportunities for themselves. Teen parents also rely heavily on social services which is an anathema to those with conservative viewpoints.

This is a much more complex issue than I think most “church people” are willing to admit. I’m not saying I have all the answers, but I am saying that it’s time for the Church, at large, to start thinking about their approach differently….
http://csalafia.wordpress.com csalafia

J,

I think you hit it on the head with “God being censored”. The teens today, while definitely having their idiot moments, are looking for more than what has traditionally been presented in the past. In all the research I did for my dissertation, one of the major reasons teens are leaving the church is because they’re not convinced by the standard “church answers” that may have been more than sufficient 20, 30 years ago. They want to know WHY, they’re crying out for depth… their hunger for spiritual answers is greater than it has been in decades. We’re doing a great disservice to them if we’re scared to dive into the uncomfortable issues they’re facing.
Peter J.Bower

Christian,
Thank-you for those statistics, they were indeed scary. It shows how we as Christians have let the world capture our hearts, what a shame.
Our founding fathers drafted a government who almost without exception were devout followers of the God of the Bible, as was Blackstone, one of the original founders of law at the time. They said freedom cannot and will not be enduring unless it is founded on the concepts the Bible teaches.
If we call ourselves Christians, then to me that means accepting the infallibility of the Bible. If you decide that it is just an interesting book not relevant for today, or you decide that parts of the Bible are not pleasing to your fancy, then in my mind you have just disqualified yourself from that title. As Christians, we must accept the Bible as the Word of God, inspired throughout.
Our church today has been transformed by cultural mandates rather than the precepts of the Bible. Look at Romans 12:1:f that says “present your bodies a living sacrifice to God”, then it says “be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind”. What is it in our culture that we find value in conformity with it so appealing? Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thoreau are probably rolling and shuddering in their graves at THAT thought.
Timothy tells us in the last days we should expect this. II Timothy 4:3 says “for the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but afer their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears, and they shall be turned to fables”.
Romans 1 also tells of the sneaking in of liberalism in the church. It says that “when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, but became vain in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools”. It goes on to say that because of this, God gave them over to their own lusts, and their own depravity, and their lust “burned one toward another”, women to women, men to men. The chapter then ends with the very stern and scary warning, in v. 32″who, knowing the judgement of God, that they which do such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them”.
Ephesians 5:3 states that sexual fornication is sin, it is wrong. Fornication means sex outside of marriage. Romans 1 teaches that homosexuality of any kind is also sexual immorality . James ch.2 says that “when lust has concieved, it brings forth sin. And when sin is finished, it brings forth death.”
If we teach our children that sin is o.k., that sex outside of marriage is o.k. (even if done “safely”), then we have just given them license to do as they please. It also indirectly says that even when married, it is also no big deal to have sex with someone other than your spouse. This is dangerous thinking, man’s thinking, that presents us with a slippery slope that ultimately leads to the pit of hell.
Matthew 7:21:f says “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity”.
Let us rather depart from immorality, live as God says, flee foolish lusts, and our children will be listening to our actions rather than our words.
Lord Jesus, please forgive me when I have conformed to this world rather than your word. Forgive me for my sins, Help me to live as I say I do, and speak with my children about Your precepts, that they may grow up not to be good kids, but to be world tranformers by the power that you give with submission to Your Word. Amen
Peter J. Bower
http://www.sendoutcards.com/40334 charlottesal

Dean, the abortion rate has decreased because it’s now socially acceptable for a woman to be a single parent (I am not taking sides on that, just stating the influence).

Bob, I was never ridiculed as a teen for being a virgin, I did, however, have incorrect ideas about sex from church. There is nothing wrong with being a virgin if one chooses but I felt that church was making it a dirty thing and that certainly was a factor in my first marriage…not with me, but my x husband.

I feel that religion can be a cloak for an individual with deeper issues so they say “I’m don’t have sex because I’m religious” yet really this girl or boy has been abused in some way or perhaps they are gay but date the opposite sex but use the religious cloak to keep it from getting physical.

Parents can educate their children however they see fit, but .. I believe what Christian is saying is that… kids don’t always do what we tell them, kids make their own choices, parents need to give guidelines for “just in case it happens” and that parents really need to talk to their kids about what sex is REALLY about, they physical, emotional, brain chemistry etc.

The “don’t do it” philosophy is outdated and it doesn’t work.
http://csalafia.wordpress.com csalafia

Bob,

I don’t disagree with anything you said.

Parents should teach their kids these things, but judging by statistics, they’re either not or not doing very well.
I don’t think a sex ed course should necessarily be part of church curriculum.
I think abstinence pledges and purity rings are good….in theory.
I agree that we should teach our kids what’s right and wrong and that, yes, actions have consequences.
As I said, as parents we want them to wait… as adults who’ve been through those years and made bad choices, it would break our hearts to see our kids make the same mistakes we did.

My main point is that we, as the church, need to step up and be a stronger influence on our kids than what culture tells them. IMO, that’ll require us, as the church, to address subjects that are uncomfortable, at best, and traditionally off limits at worst.

I like your idea of the church helping parents discuss these issues…. I think that’s spot on.

Traditionally, the church has just buried its head in the sand on this issue or only tackled it superficially. Teens today, tho stupid at times, are alot smarter and much more mature than I think we give them credit for. In our group, in particular, I believe that to be true and the credit has to go with we have alot of great and deeply involved parents. Plus, all of us leaders have huge hearts for them and are deeply committed to helping them grow into adults, not only in faith, but in life as well.

As much as the “it takes a village” saying gets mocked, there is truth to it. There’s alot of teens who don’t get what they need from their parents, and it’s reflected in attitudes, behaviors, etc. While I don’t, and won’t ever, advocate that we should take the parents’ place, in my heart, I want the Church, particularly youth ministry, to be a safe place where they can come with these issues if they need to. I want them to know we’re going to take them seriously, listen to what they have to say, counsel them in love, lift them up when they need it, knock them down when they need it, even help them discuss these things with their parents…. in essence arm them fully so that they can stand against the things of this world that try to pull them away from God.

When I talk to the JrHi guys, I’m always on them about being “stand up guys”… growing into men that have respect for themselves, respect for the girls/women in their lives, respect for strangers and the oddballs, trying to instill them with the confidence to stand courageous in their faith. I always tell them that if the girl they like doesn’t get it, then she doesn’t deserve them….and that the girls who DO get it are the ones who they’re more likely to build strong, lasting, and most importantly, healthy relationships with.

Does that explain it a little better?
http://lovingaccuracy.blogspot.com/ dRo

Is this a Christian blog?

Where is the Word of God discussed here?

dRo
http://lovingaccuracy.blogspot.com/ dRo

Christian,

Did you actually read the entire article?

The second part of the article states the difficulty the researchers encountered in interepreting this data.

The number of abortions in the various states was difficult to account for and they affirmed the fact that abortions are under reported when statistics are gathered.

Also, the author discusses how teen marriages are common in some of these states and how some of the births may be planned.

Was this considered in your conclusion?

dRo
Dean Richardson

Yeah, criminals dont get the “dont do it” philosophy either. They suffer consequences. So that suggests that all of civilization is wrong. I suppose that is possible. So in all cases where we have dissent from acceptable behavior we MUST provide the dissenters with methods to safely dissent.

Yeah, I guess that will work, probably not though. That we think think that will work scares the crap out of me!
http://lovingaccuracy.blogspot.com/ dRo

Christian,

The most disturbing part of this article is how you managed to distort the text of John 8:7-11.

Here is the text:

But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court. Straightening up, Jesus said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you, either Go From now on sin no more.”

Let’s look at this text, for what it really says.

The people have come to Jesus seeking Him to affirm their condemnation of a sinner. Jesus responds with two principles:

1)They, too, are sinners and are condemned in their sin and need to be saved

See, the purpose of the church is not to condemn, the purpose is to acknowledge the sin and then to lead the sinner into repentance and salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

2)Jesus instructs the sexual sinner to “go and sin no more.” Jesus says, “don’t do it” and “save it for marriage.”

“go and sin no more” is the message of abstinence.

You stated that this counsel is “antiquated and ineffective.” Are you stating that the command of Jesus is antiquated and ineffective?

Your suggestion was, instead, to have a more well rounded approach.

Let’s take your advice to it’s ultimate conclusion. Let’s teach our children that it is alright to sin as long as they do it in a safe way. Let’s teach when you sin, sin in safety. When you worship idols, worship them behind closed doors. When you blashpheme the Name of God, do it quietly so that maybe He won’t hear. When you murder, wear gloves.

Do you see how silly this is?
http://lovingaccuracy.blogspot.com/ dRo

My counsel to you is simple:

1) Teach your children the truth, that sex is meant to be reserved for marriage.

2) Don’t put your children in situations where they can have sex, and expect them to resist. Instead, stand with your children and act as a parent and do your best to keep them from those situations.

3) Teach your children to fear God, not man.

-dRo
Ex.15:3
http://lovingaccuracy.blogspot.com/ dRo

I don’t believe that social acceptance has ever had anything to do with abortions. I would love to see some factual argumentation for that.

Your statement about virginity is a little concerning. You said, “There is nothing wrong with being a virgin if one chooses…” In fact, it is God’s intention for us to be virgins until marriage and to keep ourselve pure. It is also God’s intention that we are sexual beings, and once married will procreate (aka, have sex).

My family doesn’t practice religion, we practice relationship. Jesus is my Lord, and I am His. In that, my children can say, I am saving my sexual activity for my future husband, and that is What Jesus wants me to do. Physical affection does not culminate in sex. Sex is an expression of affection, but so is holding hands.

Our job as parents is not to simply educate. Our job is to raise our children. We are to love them, protect them, help them, strengthen them, discipline them, and prepare them to walk with the LORD.

I say, “go, and sin no more” … or “don’t do it”

dRo
Dean Richardson

My thought is that firm rigid boundaries are much more clear and understandable. Draw a line in the sand and make it clear that crossing that line will lead to HORRIBLE consequences. Dont muddy the line.

Dont say “this is bad, but iif you do it this way it is LESS bad”

That is a confusing message and WILL lead to sin. I do not think that is what we want to lead our children to. Do we?
http://www.sendoutcards.com/40334 charlottesal

I think some people are missing the point. Christian is saying that it is ok to instruct your child to wait to have sex. He’s not saying anything otherwise. It’s just that God gave us all the freedom to chose things in our lives, our kids don’t always make the right choice. I could talk to my kids all day about not eating candy, I can tell them why it’s bad, I can take it out of my house but… if kids want candy..they will find it ..it’s always available to them.

I believe there is no depth in the message of abstinence. It’s a simple don’t do it. Consequences are not explained and the definition of sex is not defined in so many cases.

Ultimately I can teach my kids the dangers of candy, the long lasting life affects and the harm it causes but in the end…they make their own choice. Candy is less harmful than sex. Sex has greater consequences. They should know these consequences but rest assured, there are children who will go forward with a sexual experience…even if you have educated them in depth? Shouldn’t they consider what is the safest way to do so? Explaining options for that does not give them permission to do it, it just helps them stay safe and prevents pregnancy after they have made their own choice.
Peter j.bower

Then, when Jesus tells us to sin no more, is it, too, shallow? Should He have given us a discourse on how, if we make the wrong decision how to make the impact in our lives more tolerable?
Does this mean, then, that if our child decides to murder, I should council him/her on how not to get caught knowing full well that so many choose to murder? Give him a lesson in how to wear gloves, evade police? A knife is always available to me child as well. Should I counsel on how to not share needles should they decide to use i.v. drugs? Give them a demo?
would it not be better to instruct on sin and its consequences, then when the child sins, they experience the destruction that accompanies it, and learn, and grow closer to God.
Peter J. Bower

Does this mean when Jesus told us to go, and sin no more, without telling us how best to avoid being caught, was shallow of Him? Should He have given the Olivet discourse on how to best protect yourself should you make the wrong decision?
Should I, knowing that many kids grow up to do drugs, and to murder, in order to not be “shallow” show my kids how best to evade police and not get caught? Or, show them how to “shoot up” properly so as to avoid hepatitis C by not sharing needles? Or, should they blaspheme God, do it where He hopefully can’t hear?
Is it being a responsible parent to purposely dull the effect of sin in our childrens’ lives by covering it up? To tell them the best way to avoid sin’s consequences?
My prayer for my children is not that they use a condom if they decide to sin, but rather that they will get caught quickly, deal with the sin, and to mature as a christian in a dark, evil world.
http://lovingaccuracy.blogspot.com/ dRo

Let’s keep this discussion to things that are really sinful… hypothetical situations using non-sinful things to describe sin is dangerous and most of the time are not productive.

How about lying. We all agree that lying is sin. I teach my children that lying is sinful and hurtful to God. But they still lie…

So, perhaps I should teach them other options. Instead of deceiving others, they will now have the option to not tell the truth, or is that still lying?

Here is the key: Hebrews 10:29
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

The idea here is that when a believer sins, we are physically walking over the Son of God. We are adding to His bruises. We are treating His grace as common and His sacrifice, that is His life and death on the cross, as nothing special.

So, when you have sex outside of marriage, or lie, or whatever sin you do – let’s look at all the options, but avoid the reality of what is taking place: taking what is called to be holy and making it common….

Great concept Charlotte
Dean Richardson

So we should take what Dan is saying and couple it with Craig’s message for the weekend and visualize what we are doing when we sin.

So if we are trampling Christ while we sin, we should have that visual that we are standing on Him while sinning.

Perhaps in this case it might be enough to keep the sin from happening in the first place. Maybe THIS is the fundamental change that we really need. Paint the picture of sin as being so abhorrent then maybe we would actually restore the shame that sin should impress upon all of us.

This visual, as Dan pointed out, IS Biblical. Maybe His way does work!
Bradley Jackson

Did all of you forget what it was like to be a kid? To be a teenager?
I’m sorry but reading some of these arguments genuinely make me sick thinking of all the wrong things that are being focused on. Christian’s only trying to say that the way the problem is being dealt with, i.e. the one time talk and only purity rings/abstinence education isn’t effective, obviously. Regardless of whether or not teenage abortions are lower the pregnancy rate shouldn’t be high period. Sex outside of marriage is a sin, no where did Christian say otherwise. But at the same time to pretend that every kid who calls themselves a Follower of Christ truly understands that is naive and just plain dumb. Teenagers don’t have the fundamental understanding of why sex is a sin and why it is bad. Sure they hear that it is, but that is no longer satisfactory. My generation craves to know why and the answer to why sex is bad is almost never there. As parents you have a choice. Stay stuck on enforcing that it is a sin, never do it before marriage and buy them a ring then hope they don’t ever think to disregard you (and as parents you should know how unlikely that is) or you can try and make it something that is a comfortable subject and if you aren’t comfortable or your child isn’t comfortable talking to you, seek help from someone they are comfortable with. This is truly absurd, to stay stuck in the past about something that is very current and different now then it ever has been. Sex cannot be pushed aside anymore, and it is your failure as adults and parents to do that. Be mature about this. And saying that explaining safe sex is giving them a free ticket to sex is also rediculous. Explaining safe sex just means that if they do sin, which everyone does eventually (no saying everyone sins sexually eventually, but in God’s eyes all sin is sin) then there is a better chance it won’t ruin their lives. Honestly, grow up.
http://lovingaccuracy.blogspot.com/ dRo

Christian,
I think abortion is a worthwhile front to fight for, don’t you? I think I read in the bible somewhere, maybe in Exodus or Deuteronomy, something about no unjustified killing…

Do you like living? How about your children lives, how important is their life to you? To refer to a focus on the preservation of life and the obedience to the sixth commandment as shortsided is not only poor theology, but is really dumb. Don’t you know that the LORD is a man of war? (ex 15:3) Our God is a mighty God, and it is always proper and worthwhile to understand His commandments and to strive to honor Him with our life.

If you would like an image of what it would be like if we gave our children a worldy-acceptable view of God’s call to holiness just look at the Lutheran church. They have just decided that it is OK for their priests to not only admit to practicing a gay lifestyle, but to openly practice it while they serve in the priestly capacity. There is the image that you are selling. An image of sin clouded in worldy affirmation that pollutes the passion of our Savior.

I think that sin really derails a teen’s life. Consequences of sin are not fun, but they are consequences, not the sin. Teaching teens how to avoid the consequences is not solving the problem, we are just masking the manifestation of the sin.

I am a “church person”, Christian. This is a difficult issue. But the issue here is more the issue of accepting a simple answer that is difficult to accept, rather than your “complex issue” suggestion.

Don’t confuse a difficult decision with a decision who’s obvious choice is a difficult one.

The decision is not difficult. Pre-marital sex is wrong. Sin is wrong. The problem is that it is difficult to accept that we shouldn’t do these things.

-dRo
Bob

Brad,
There is no such thing as safe sex. That is part of the problem. There are not only physical consequences but psychological as well. Even when a condom is involved. Pregnancies can happen, STDs such as genital warts, and other things. I would wager to say that close to 100% of the teens that had consensual sex knew they should use a condom and knew how to get one.
Dean Richardson

Yeah, immorality is scaring and the scaring happens earlier and earlier. According to my family counselor, kids do not have the capacity to rationalize. No matter how you cut it kids are not ready for sex and if they mess with it they will get burned. More often than not even rationalizing does no good, except plants the seed of curiosity into the immature mind.

That is like handing a loaded gun to a monkey and seeing what happens. They are not capable of understanding, so why put them in the situation.

Our job as parents is to keep children from killing themselves. Without us most children would die. That is what we effort. That is not to say that children will still not try to do the things that will kill them, but we have to think for them because they are not able to actually make the right choices. Completely incapable of rational high functioning thought.

Start from that point and then tell me what the right choice is. Give them a little knowledge about something they can not possibly understand and what will they do with it?

No the right answer is to help them to stay far far far away from the problem all together and help them make choices which will keep them from hurting themselves.

Children will hurt themselves when left to their own devices. Period. All we can do is protect them in every way possible from doing that.
http://lovingaccuracy.blogspot.com/ dRo

Not every kid who calls themselves a follower of Christ is a follower of Christ.

This is a true statement, not only of children, but also of adults.

It sounds like you are advocating the following:

1) We can’t bribe children into obedience (rings)
2) Sex outside of marriage is sin
3) Children/teens don’t understand
4) Teens want to know why sex is bad
5) Parents have a choice to make
6) Sex was not in the past, it is a modern problem
7) Be mature about this Everyone sins
9) We should teach how to avoid the consequences of sin

Wow, there is a *lot* to talk about here.

I agree with you on points 1, 2, 3, 5, and 7.

4) Sex is not bad. Sex is good. God created us to be sexual beings, however, God’s plan is for sex to be inside of the union between man and woman and for the purpose of procreation (to populate the earth).

6) The problems and temptations of sex in the ancient world / early church were more problematic and more difficult than they are today. The dance houses and prostitues of Rome made our situation of today look like a preschool class. This is not a new problem, but a very old problem with the same struggles. People want to take God’s creation and use it in a way that is insulting and hurtful to God (see homosexuality, beastiality, autoerticism, pornography, pedophilia, etc).
Jesus has never sinned.

9) Want to avoid the consequences of sin? Here’s how:
-Pray for mercy
-Pray for strength
-Ask others to hold you accountable
-Learn the commandements by heart
-When you sin, repent, and pray for forgiveness.

Interested in more? Try reading the bible.

dRo
Dean Richardson

Amen!
http://lovingaccuracy.blogspot.com/ dRo

= #8 … eventhough the sunglass thing is cool
Bradley Jackson

If you think you can ignore the issue of sex with your kids and keep them from it you or ignorant and foolish. Teenagers can be rationalized with and talked to, it’s parents who fail in this capacity. Often, parents with your point of view. The way you view this issue is antiquated, ineffective, and will likely bear ill consequences for whoever you practice it with. Putting a gun in a gun safe or on the highest shelf doesn’t teach your kid how to be safe with it. The one time you forget to lock the gun closet may very will be the one time your kid accidently shoots someone. It is about the same thing with sex. If you solely try to keep them from the issue and ignore it then chances are your child will have sex without your knowledge. Especially considering the sheer amount of time until your child is married (i.e. until out of college which is on average 22-23 years old, which means about 7-8 years sexually aware) the “pretend it isn’t there” more then likely will not work.
http://csalafia.wordpress.com csalafia

Yes, I did read the article. I’m anxious to see the actual data once the study is released.

However, in light of that, there are numerous other studies that have been done to show that in places where: abstinence only, virginity pledges, and purity rings are more prevalent, there is no discernable difference in teen pregnancy, sexual activity or the incidence of STDs. In fact, some studies show that those things have just the opposite effect.

What I’m interested is what’s happening here… opening the dialogue.
http://lovingaccuracy.blogspot.com/ dRo

Bradley,

I don’t think you demonstrated the “rational” thoughtfulness your reply was attempting to argue.

Is your lust so out of control that you really are searching and looking for the first opportunity to sin, rather than fighting with your flesh to subdue it for the glory of the Lord?

Did you base any of your claims on studies or research, or is this simply from the wealth of your experience?

dRo
http://csalafia.wordpress.com csalafia

So in all cases where we have dissent from acceptable behavior we MUST provide the dissenters with methods to safely dissent.

Dean,

That’s not at all what I said, nor what I am advocating. Now, I know you, so I ask you this. When someone tells you something is bad, do you just take their word for it or do you search to find out why it is?

That’s all I’m talking about here is getting more in depth into the why….the physical, physiological, spiritual, emotional reasons. “Just say NO” doesn’t work…especially if that’s all there is. I did say that there will be those that probably will never get it, but do you want those types influencing your kids because they’re not getting the answers they want and/or need from you?

Or do we dare have the uncomfortable conversations (yes, plural) to counteract the influence of the world?
Bradley Jackson

I mispoke. Sex isn;t bad, sex outside of marriage is bad. Doesn’t change the basis of my argument, explaining why sex outside of marriage is bad.

i didn’t say it is a new problem, it is an old problem that has changed and needs to be dealt with in a new way.

And honestly for #9 that isn’t an effective way to keep kids from having sex. Which is the whole point.

Considering how much I talk to teenagers in mid-High and High school levels and how they talk about sex I can tell you that the way the problem is being treated now doesn’t work. Stick your head in the sand and ignore that all you want, and don’t change a thing. It’s ultimately your choice. However, given that I would like to stop kids and teenagers from having sex, and by reciprocation, contract STD’s and have children, I would like to hear different ways to try and achieve that.
claire griffin

Peter, I respectfully and wholeheartedly agree with your thoughts. I said exactly your words to my husband before reading it. Jesus said sin no more, the end. I got sex ed in high school, all the details. It glorified sex, and when I came home, I was in an environment of black and white doctrine. I STILL chose to “mess up”. Looking back, I know for me, that non-compromise of TRUTH has carried into my adulthood. I truly agree that sex should be discussed more clearly and with clear consequence, but not with a back door out if the sin is chosen. I adore christian with all my heart and respectffully disagree.
Bradley Jackson

fine. safer sex.
http://lovingaccuracy.blogspot.com/ dRo

Bradley,

The arguement isn’t, what is the best contraceptive device. The discussion is, how to address the issue of premarital sex with children.

as for #9 – I believe in prayer, because I know Jesus. The question I have in my mind, is do you really know Jesus? If you really don’t see prayer, accountability, and repentance as effective, then the answer is, “no.”

Honeslty, Bradley, it is probably best for both the Jr. High and High School students if you would stop offering them counsel and instead spend that time seeking counsel from those who can disciple you.

I answer your question of why sex outside of marriage is bad, you just missed it, or dismissed it – whichever you prefer.

Sex is wrong outside of marriage because it is the corruption of God’s creation and plan for His creation. Want to have sex? Then seek a spouse, get married, and have sex – just keep in mind that marriage is not a wedding, but a welding – it is for life.

dRo
Bradley Jackson

There are two fundamental arguments I have.

1) Not every kid is as Christian as they say, and to throw them under the bus for the purpose of your own personal satisfaction is not fair to them and vindictive on your part. Teaching “Safe Sex” options is not a free pass, but it keeps teenagers who aren’t fundamentally sound in Christ safer then they would otherwise.

2) To achieve abstinence only, which I believe to be a goal that can be achieved with Christian teenagers, the current view of teaching must be changed. It isn’t working, regardless of how sarcastic your responses are.
Dean Richardson

But teens are not rational and that thinking that you can reason it away is flawed.

It sends a mixed message when we say “Here is sin and here is SAFE sin”. It just is completely naive to think that children can get it.

Some sin is easier to explain than others, but all of it leads to death. Sexual sin can not be explained to their heads full of mush. This is one of those areas where we have to be firm and encourage them to accept the boundaries established by our God.

Christ died for our sins, safe sin or not, educating SAFEness in this context is wrong.
Dean Richardson

To achieve abstinence you have to have full support of everyone around you and a fundamental commitment to that goal from parents, peers, family, friends, etc.

That is accountability and responsibility. How many kids who want the lolipop sitting on the counter will always take a friend to the kitchen in order to avoid the lollipop?

Telling the kid about the safe eating method of lollipop consumption will not help him avoid it, but rather educate him and his curiosity. Does that help or hurt him?

Teenagers, Sex, and the Church

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