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Is Jan Brewer Lying For Politics and Profit?

jan brewer

Arizona Governor Jan Brewer

Discussion of any highly controversial or contentious political issue is bound to contain its fair share of misinformation.  Unfortunately, that’s just the nature of the beast today.  People are generally too intellectually incurious to do even the most remedial of research into a topic.  This is not sole property of either left or right or progressive or conservative or religious or secular, etc.

Now, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that part of the reason Gov. Brewer signed SB 1070 was to protect her own political backside from getting walloped in the Republican primary by notable blowhard Sheriff Joe Arpaio.  Every poll leading up to her signing the bill had her winning the primary…..except in cases where Arpaio ran.  However, once Arpaio held his press conference to say he’s not running, you’d she would have toned down the rhetoric a few notches.

Not so, it seems.

Brewer claimed that she believes almost all illegal immigrants are bringing drugs across the border.

The US Border Patrol says her claim is false.

Brewer claims that decapitated bodies are being found in the desert.

An investigation by a local news station, in which all border county coroners were asked to verify this claim revealed that all of Arizona’s border county medical examiners revealed no decapitated bodies have been reported to them.

She claims that crime rates are increasing due to illegal immigration.

FBI crime statistics show this to be another lie.  Violent crime has dropped every year since 2004, the murder rate is half of what it was in 2003, and the Border Patrol reports that the number of border crossers are half of what they were in 2004.

The latest piece of this story came from KPHO:

In the meantime, a CBS 5 News investigation revealed that there is one business that could profit from the implementation of SB 1070 and similar immigration measures. The private prison industry houses illegal immigrant detainees for the federal government. Those companies could gain contracts with state and local agencies to house illegal immigrants arrested for state violations.

Corrections Corporation of America, or CCA, holds the federal contract to house detainees in Arizona. The company bills $11 million per month. CBS 5 Investigates learned that two of Brewer’s top advisers have connections to CCA.

Paul Senseman is the governor’s deputy chief of staff. He is also a former lobbyist for CCA. His wife is listed as a current lobbyist for the company.

Chuck Coughlin is one of the governor’s policy advisers and her campaign chairman. Coughlin’s company, HighGround Public Affairs Consultants, currently lobbies for CCA.

So, she signs a bill to save her political backside that has the potential to put money in the pocket of two of her top advisors.

Something stinks, and the source is in the Governor’s mansion.

Updated: August 30, 2011 at 6:55 pm
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  • http://theparish.typepad.com greg

    Saw three stories about AZ and her on FixedNews today–was held captive at a restaurant. Not one of them mentioned the Channel 5 piece. Hmmm….

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  • Eugene Pando

    Mexico needs to stop being the principal enabler of illegal migration and President Obama needs to stop looking the other way.

    The blood of illegal immigrants are on the hands of the Mexican government, the people in the United States that hire them at the miserable wages they pay them, and the foolish bleeding hearts that for the sake of cheaper strawberries believe it is ok to die a miserable death in the Arizona desert as long as it is not by decaptation.

    Dehydration, snakebite, bullet… good. Decapitation… bad… Pffft.

    WWJD? He would obey the law.

    • http://homebrewedtheology.com Christian

      Eugene,

      You do realize that under President Obama, deportations are up, and even Sen. Kyl backtracked and admitted that Obama has done a lot for border security, right?

      Would Jesus obey the law? Sure, the OT law.
      Exodus 12:49 – “The same law applies to the native-born and to the alien living among you.”
      God explicitly and repeatedly commands the Israelites to provide the immigrants in their society with rights, benefits, and responsibilities equal to the native-born.

      So, you see, it’s not always as clear cut as people would like to believe.

  • http://theparish.typepad.com greg

    The Channel 5 report listed all the relevant numbers, including a 44% decrease in illegal border crossings. Facts don’t often win in ideological wars though.

    • http://homebrewedtheology.com Christian

      Well, here in AZ, anything anti-Mexican is the biggest vote getter, slightly ahead of anything that has to do with getting rid of taxes all together.

  • Eugene Pando

    Man, you guys are so easy to lie to. Deportations being up is a good thing? That’s like me saying I’m eating more donuts because I have more to choose from in Krispy Kreme than I do in my kitchen. There are more deportations because there are more illegals.

    Is Exodus talking about “aliens” or “illegal aliens”? Does “alien”s include the green ones also?

    So what you’re saying is that Jesus followed folowed the law right?

    Enjoy your strawberries… nevermind that Maria is somewhere out in the desert being abused by some coyote.

    • http://homebrewedtheology.com Christian

      Umm…I thought the point was to get the illegals out of the country? So I don’t quite understand why you’re taking the position that deportations being up isn’t good news.

      Actually, there aren’t more illegals, as border crossings have dropped by nearly 50% over the last few years. Fewer and fewer are coming….but that fact doesn’t do much to support the position of those who cry “invasion” at every opportunity.

      Deportations up, border crossings down….simple math. Also, DHS numbers for the illegal immigrant population have shown a drop every year since 2006-2007.

      Exodus didn’t distinguish because the OT concepts of justice and mercy are universal. The Hebrew word “ger” translates, roughly, to immigrant, and appears 92 times in the OT. And when it is used, it is always in the context of justice, mercy, and God’s command to not oppress/abuse the immigrant.

      Oh, and let me ask you this….did Jesus ever ask anyone for their green card, or what their citizenship status was before extending them mercy?

      BTW… I don’t eat strawberries, I’m allergic. Also, if we get comprehensive immigration reform (fixing a system that is outdated and broken), we will go a long way towards putting the coyotes out of business. All they’ll have left to do is smuggle guns bought in the US into Mexico while smuggling drugs North.

      We can end human trafficking. We just have to want to.

    • http://homebrewedtheology.com Christian

      That being said, what I find most interesting is that you haven’t addressed the fact that Gov. Brewer is lying to the people of Arizona and that her top two advisers stand to make boo-koo cash from this deal.

      That, in itself, speaks volumes.

  • Greg

    Eugene seems enamored of the same arguments used by the Minute Men. It seems we can’t support illegals in their plight, just law enforcement, and financial accountability from the governor. So tired of all the false choices, as if there are always only two options. What was most disturbing about the piece was her refusal to address the issue. She seems to have forgotten that she is an elected official.

    • http://homebrewedtheology.com Christian

      Eh, not as disturbing as you’d think. That’s pretty standard for Arizona politics. I have no idea how many letters, calls, emails I’ve sent to my elected officials (all R’s btw), and in all that time I’ve only received 2 responses. One was a form letter from JD Hayworth and the other was a rather smarmy email from the lady who wrote AZ’s “Birther Bill”. Unless you’re one of the “good ol’ boys” or go to the same ward/stake they do, they’re not interested in what you have to say.

  • http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us Joel

    Wow…Eugene…what law would Christ follow?

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  • http://homebrewedtheology.com Christian

    Of course, Brewer says she’ll appeal.

    But the beauty is her saying this:

    “Meanwhile, I also know we still have work to do in confronting the fear-mongers, those dealing in hate and lies..”

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  • mickey

    Christian, I’ve pointed out a few times already that you seem to attack the messenger, and ignore the message really often when you discuss politics.

    Now I’m noticing another trend in your writing. One just as bad. After reading your article, the only thing I could think about was that scene in Joe Dirt where Joe tells Kickenwing “Yeah, there’s a snail in the desert. A spaceship just dropped him off. You’re missin the point of the story brother!” You remember that one? You allow yourself all too often to get caught up in the WWE atmosphere that surrounds people like Maddow, Olbermann, and Beck. You focus entirely too hard on people like that.

    Does it really matter what Brewer said? What matters is that your state has an immigration problem that it can’t afford. What matters is that your governor is doing what she feels is the right thing to do to mitigate that problem. If you dont agree with her then offer up a different solution instead of allowing yourself to be distracted by all the little things that politicians want you to be distracted by. Its kinda like watching a magician. Always try to make a conscious effort to NOT look where he wants your eyes to be focused. Thats how you might possibly figure out what’s really going on.

    If you read the article you linked to, you’ll see that all of these deportations havent happened yet. Theyre “planned.” Get back to us when they actually happen. And who exactly says that the number of people crossing the border is decreasing? How do they know that? They have no idea how many are here, which means they have no idea how many were crossing before to make a comparison. I’m thinkin that possibly all this talk of new laws and whatnot simply has forced the illegals to hide more. Maybe they arent putting their kids in schools. Maybe there are less who actually are trying to do the right thing and register for citizenship out of fear. Maybe they cherry picked the portion of border along the state of Arizona and determined that less are crossing (I wonder why). I have no idea what the real answer is, but I sure as hell wouldnt look to the administration in Washington for the correct answer.

    Christian, do you take issue with the fact that you cannot drive without carrying your license with you? Do you find it to be an incredible burden to carry it? If you answered to NO to these questions, then your point about asking for green cards and citizenship status is meaningless.

    • http://homebrewedtheology.com Christian

      Yes, it matters immensely what Brewer says. She wants to be Governor (elected, this time) and is deliberately lying to the people of Arizona. The FBI, AZ County Medical Examiners, USBP, and DHS all prove her accusations to be outright false.

      False…. and she has yet to issue corrections to those provably false statements.

      By repeatedly lying, making these types of statements, she’s proving herself to be incapable of dealing with this issue calmly and rationally. She’s also stirring up anti-immigrant sentiment in the state, which, in turn, results in things like JT Ready and his band of Neo-Nazis heading down to the desert to “patrol”…..decked out in camouflage and assault rifles with the intention of being confrontational. And if you think the NeoNazi line is an exaggeration, it’s not. He’s a known National Socialist/White Supremacist who was on Rusty Pearce’s (sponsor of SB1070) campaign committee.

      I believe there should be a guest worker program with an 8 year path to citizenship. After every couple of years, if you keep your nose clean, your immigrant status gets “upgraded” until citizenship is achieved.

      As far as stats, what incentive would the USBP or the FBI or the AZ Medical Examiners have to lie? I mean, it’s not like they stand to make tons of money through the private prison industry like members of Brewer’s staff.

      Have many returned? Yes, and that’s been documented, too. In fact, ALIPAC, an anti-immigrant group, has actually called for the US to institute a “safe harbor” program allowing immigrants to return, unmolested, to their home countries. I really don’t see anything wrong with that, either.

      Here’s the thing. Like the judge said, the government would be required to check the immigration status of everyone they arrested under SB1070. As someone who opposes government spending, how do you propose to pay for the increased staff, computers, software systems, networks, etc., that this would require so as to not be an undue burden?

  • http://theparish.typepad.com greg

    Mickey, I’m sort of new around here so you’ll forgive me for butting in. You seem to be engaging in an unusual method of argument when you say that the numbers crossing the border are unknown. If they are truly unknown, then how does Brewer know there is a problem? Maybe there is no problem? It’s possible that AZ law enforcement or INS uses a calculus like: for every one we catch, x gets away. In other words, there has to be at least a pretty good estimate of how many are coming over the border. If they’re catching less, it seems a fair assumption, everything else being equal of course, that the number of crossings are down. Also, once they are here, they can’t “register for citizenship.” There is no route. That’s one of the problems. I invite you to check out the chart from Reason Magazine regarding the immigration maze. Seriously, take a look: http://reason.org/files/a87d1550853898a9b306ef458f116079.pdf

    Also, the point you make about having a driver’s license is irrelevant. The police are allowed to stop NON-DRIVERS as well. Many people in large metropolitan areas have no driver’s license, because they rely on public transportation, friends, family, etc. The documentation in question is far more than a driver’s license, as you ought to know. Are you simply being disingenuous?

  • mickey

    Good points Greg.

    While I’m certainly not saying I take the Az state govt at its word about how bad the problem is, I will give them much more of an ear than I would give to the federal govt. I will always default to the most local govt entity. Those are the people who know best the extent of the problem. Well, they and business owners.

    Whether its true or not, I’ll even concede that we’re now catching less. OK, so now what? Were we catching 10000/ month before and now we’re only catching 9000? Or 5000? Yeah, its better. But is it good enough? I think not. Each and every one of them has broken the law. Period.

    I looked at your linked chart. I stand by my original comments. I really dont care how long it takes. It has nothing to do with the issue that we do indeed have an immigration problem in this country. Making them all citizens does nothing to help the situation- in fact it makes it worse because now they can legally rape this country of undeserved benefits that we cannot afford. But if you do care how long it takes, then you should focus your frustration with the situation with the federal govt, NOT your state govt. But if you choose to berate your own state govt, then perhaps you should be encouraging them to be even stronger in going after the problem.

    No, I”m not being disingenuous at all. Even if I’m not driving I can still be asked for ID at any given time if the police have reasonable suspicion that I have done wrong. Possibly I fit the description of someone theyre looking for. If I cant provide ID, I could easily be taken in. Once found innocent, of course I will be let loose, but I seriously doubt the ACLU or LaRazza will be protesting that I was harassed. I also will not be compensated for my time nor apologized to. Thats just the way it is. But you already knew that. You knew that “drivers license” could have easily been substituted with “ID card”.

    I have explained my position on the border in a previous post on this blog. I wont go over it again. And i promise you I’m not nearly as far out there as it might come across. We probably share a lot of similar views on it. But right now, the law is the law. Arizona is trying to enforce the law and solve a problem the feds wont. I dont blame them and I support them in doing so until the law is changed. The big place we will differ is that I have no problem with profiling. Profiling is a necessary tool of law enforcement whether you or anyone else wants to admit it or not- including racial profiling. There is nothing wrong with searching for a BLACK male provided other identifying info is given. There is nothing wrong with searching for Hispanics either.

  • http://theparish.typepad.com greg

    Mickey, I’ll leave alone the idea that illegals are “raping” the country. Your choice of language does not help debate, by the way. As for the law, Arizona is trying to pass a law that is clearly unconstitutional. No one is allowed to transgress a fundamental principle in pursuit of a secondary principle. This is precisely what Arizona is attempting to do. I would agree with you that local governments best know the issues, but the FBI numbers don’t lie, and apparently Jan Brewer does. As the piece makes clear, she has significant vested interest in lying about numbers; the FBI has none.

  • mickey

    Quick…name me one politician who has never told a lie. OK, name one who hasnt told MANY lies.
    Of course, you’ll laugh it off, but the closest thing to an honest politician I’ve seen is Ron Paul. Even though you probably disagree with him on 90% of the issues, hopefully you can at least admit that he’s honest and respect him for it. But I digress…..

    So you blame Brewer because a group of loonies runs off to the border carrying guns? Really? Actually, I’m not surprised. Personal responsibility has never been a platform of liberal politics.

    I’ve never heard of JT Ready. However, based on some of the things I’ve read on here it sounds like you’d at least prefer him to G Bush, D Cheney, or R Limbaugh. If you take away his White Supremacist side all thats left is……wait, never mind. Sorry, I’m feeling extra sarcastically humorous today :)

    I have no issues with the 8 year plan.

    The FBI has no reason to lie as an organization. But there are those within the FBI who have good reason to lie if they want to keep their jobs or further their careers. This is always true of ANY govt agency regardless of who is in the White House or Congress.

    You might have a point about potential costs of trying to check everyones status. I have no idea. But I do know that just about every police force in America today has the ability to run a quick check on you and your vehicle from their car when they pull you over. So possibly this could be integrated with already existing systems. Its something to consider nonetheless. Then again I’ve already stated that I have absolutely NO ISSUE with profiling. You may not admit it, but deep down, you know that it is a valuable and necessary tool of law enforcement.

    • http://homebrewedtheology.com Christian

      Quick…name me one politician who has never told a lie. OK, name one who hasnt told MANY lies.

      That should not be used as a rationalization. Plus, there’s a difference between taking things out of context or spinning information and making things up out of thin air. Brewer is guilty of the latter.

      Of course, you’ll laugh it off, but the closest thing to an honest politician I’ve seen is Ron Paul.

      Unless you want to count the pork he puts into spending bills that he later votes against, his promotion of the NAFTA superhighway myth, or fervent belief in “New World Order” conspiracies…..but I digress.


      So you blame Brewer because a group of loonies runs off to the border carrying guns? Really? Actually, I’m not surprised. Personal responsibility has never been a platform of liberal politics.

      Is she solely responsible? No. However, one has to take responsibility for the things they say, it goes both ways. You can’t just spout off things like that, or Beck’s tirades against the Tides foundation (which was targeted by an anti-government zealot in California recently), or Paul’s “they’re coming to take your guns” and then claim total innocence when someone takes your words to heart.

      Oh, and among Paul’s supporters are: Holocaust Museum shooter, James Von Brunn, Pittsburgh cop killer, Richard Paplowski and Pentagon shooter, John Patrick Bedell, and Hutaree Militia leader David Brian Stone. All these people bought into Paul’s anti-government, new world order conspiracies. In fact, what set Stone off, according to his family, was the election of Barack Obama and the fact that Stone was a Ron Paul fanatic who thought the government would try and take away his guns.

  • http://theparish.typepad.com greg

    Mickey, I honestly can’t decide if you’re sincere or just baiting. The average patrolman’s ability to run a check on you is predicated on you carrying state identification. No law compels you to do so unless you’re operating a vehicle. Surely you know this. There is no requirement to “carry papers” in America. That is as it should be, I think. And I’m not in the business of excusing politicians for lying, be it one or one hundred. Seriously? That’s your argument. At least acknowledge that lying for national security is more respectable than lying for profit. The former could be a patriot; the latter is a thief no matter the circumstance.

  • mickey

    Explain the difference between spinning, taking out of context, and making things up. Especially when it comes to politicians. Neither is any better or worse. The people deserve the truth and nothing but the truth. Were you angry at Democrats during the healthcare debates? I bet you werent because you didnt care how they did it…you just wanted that bill passed.

    I didnt say R Paul never told a lie. I said hes the closest thing to honest that I have seen.

    All the proof you need that R Paul must be doing something right is that he gets attacked from both the left and the right. In equal doses. Thats all you need to know, really. I dont agree with him on everything. but I certainly agree with him on most. I’d say 75% of the time. More than I can say about anyone else in Washington.

    He;s open about his pork he puts into bills. hes not hiding it. He disagrees with the bill and votes against it- as he should. But since he knows his colleagues will pass the garbage anyway, he may as well get what he can for his constituents. Theres nothing wrong with that at all- especially since he;s very open about it.

    I couldnt care less who supports ron paul. Do you not think any kooks support Obama? Would you change your mind if you found out about one?

    I also dont care about someones opinion on why some kook went off and started a militia. You can blame Paul if youd like, just as you blame your governor for people with guns on the border. Me? I blame the individuals themselves, and no one else.

  • Eugene Pando

    I know this doesn’t rise to the level of a beheading in the desert, but how’s them cheap strawberries?http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/7150691.html

    • http://homebrewedtheology.com Christian

      Aside from the logical fallacies of “appeal to fear” and “hasty generalization”, what point are you trying to make?

      Is he a bad guy? Yup.

      A cop was killed here recently and people were just absolutely salivating with hope that it was an illegal. Turns out, 5 US Citizens were involved. You could feel the disappointment from the rabidly anti-hispanic crowd here.

  • Eugene Pando
  • mickey

    Eugene, in one sense I agree with you, and yet in another, I dont.

    Obviously, I would love to see the immigration problem taken care of by both locking down the border and by harsher punishment for those who hire them (regardless of what they pay them).

    On the other hand, posting this link and seemingly implying that all immigrants are murderers is taking a page out of the left’s play book. You shouldnt stoop to that level, IMO. Next thing you know you’ll be calling people racists on issues that have nothing to do with race. He was a criminal before he murdered that girl and thats the bottom line.

  • Eugene Pando

    “posting this link and seemingly implying that all immigrants are murderers…”

    Now you’re just making things up. I’m not implying all immigrants are murderers… just Mr. Alvarado there.

    “…is taking a page out of the left’s play book.” In this case you are taking a page out of the left’s playbook. Conservatives have no problem whatsoever with immigrants… it’s “illegal” immigrants that we have a problem with… stop making things up.

    Pick a number between 1 and 309,975,000 that represents the amount of people you are willing to accept being killed by “illegal” aiens in exchange for whatever benefit you think they bring to the United States. As as of 9/11 the number stands at 45,625 So the number you pick has to be higher than that.

  • mickey

    My point was simply that the link doesnt do anything to further the argument against illegal immigration. I am against illegal immigration just as you are. And I think that illegal immigrants offer ZERO benefit to this country.

  • Eugene Pando

    Maybe not this one in itself. In this case the single does not negate the plural, it just adds to it. It is only one of 45,625.

    I gues my disagreement really isn’t with you anyway.

    Thanks for being on the right side Mickey.

  • Eugene Pando

    If someone is fearful or generalizes with what I wrote that’s their problem.

    I’ts not like you’re not generalizing by by lumping everybody in the “anti-hispanic” crowd right? Sheesh. Not only are you generelizing, but you are lying too. Nobody that I know is “anti-hispanic”. I know alot of people who are “anti-Illegal” though, but I kow it’s convenient for you lie like that. If you got nothing just make it up right Christian?
    Ok Christian you pick a number between 1 and 309,975,000 that represents the amount of people you are willing to accept being killed by “illegal” aiens in exchange for whatever benefit you think they bring to the United States. As as of 9/11 the number stands at 45,625 So the number you pick has to be higher than that.

  • mickey

    “A cop was killed here recently and people were just absolutely salivating with hope that it was an illegal. Turns out, 5 US Citizens were involved. You could feel the disappointment from the rabidly anti-hispanic crowd here.”

    Odd isnt it? Reminds me of that one time when that bomb almost went off in NYC. Oh wait, that wasnt long ago. Yeah, it was kinda anticlimactic and the story faded when it turned out NOT to be a white Christian member of the Tea Party.

  • Eugene Pando

    I remember a white gun toting racist at a tea party rally that turned out to be black after liberals cropped the shot down to one square foot of his back. No hope for some “hasty generalizing” there right Christian? No “appeal to fear” there right Christian?

    Again… pick a number between 1 and 309,975,000 that represents the amount of people you are willing to accept being killed by “illegal” aiens in exchange for whatever benefit you think they bring to the United States. As as of 9/11 the number stands at 45,625 So the number you pick has to be higher than that.

  • http://bloglines.com/blog/FleshlightMan Monte Hartig

    After watching Blagojevich give the expected post-trial ‘I did nothing wrong speech’, angrily blaming the prosecution for picking on him, not one iota of regret or remorse (how dare they convict him of lying), acting as if this were an acquittal…Yes, try him again.

  • joshua

    Wwjd? Um… didn’t Jesus’ family migrate to Egypt with the intent purpose of subverting the rule of law under Herrod?

    That little baby Jesus must have been an anchor baby.

  • joshua

    Eugene, the argument you keep repeating is silly. Nobody wants anyone to die, but we just don’t think this course of action is the way to stop killing. I’ll give you a few examples:

    Glenn Beck helped incite the fellow involved in attempted attacks recently due to the “Tide Foundation” comments. Pick a number between 1 and 309,975,000 that represents the amount of people you are willing to accept being killed because of Glenn Beck’s comments before we forcefully pull him from the air, in exchange for whatever benefit you think he brings to the United States.

    A man walks into a church and shoots a doctor in the head due to his Christian fervor against abortion. Pick a number between 1 and 309,975,000 that represents the amount of people you are willing to accept being killed before we detain all Christians, in exchange for whatever benefit you think they bring to the United States.

    Thousands of children die every year due to private pools. Pick a number between 1 and 309,975,000 that represents the amount of people you are willing to accept being killed because of swimming pools before we ban them all, in exchange for whatever benefit you think they bring to the United States.

  • Eugene Pando

    If it’s such an silly argument Why do you repeat three times. That’s not silly it’s dumm.

    I asked first. Answer the question.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100825/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_drug_war_mexico

    Enjoy your strawberries.

    • http://homebrewedtheology.com Christian

      Eugene,

      You, yourself, have repeated that argument. It is, on it’s face, silly, at best. Tell me, when are you willing to go back to prohibition because of drunk driving accidents? Tell me, when will you advocate banning guns because children are accidentally killed by guns left out by irresponsible owners? How about we go after evangelical Christians because of Eric Rudolph or Scott Roeder? Or perhaps we should go after all Tea Partiers or Glenn Beck for the guy in California who, with a car full of guns, was headed to shoot up the Tides Foundation?

      Tell me… how many is too many for any of these?

  • mickey

    I havent heard much bout prohibition lately…..however, with that said:

    1) I dont know about you personally, but many who share a lot of your beliefs already want to take away my guns.
    2) Many who share a lot of your beliefs, and even you yourself are already after Rudolph and Roeder and attributing their actions to all conservatives. So i’m not sure what youre saying here. Is it a good thing or a bad thing to use those guys as examples? You cant change your mind depending on the point youre trying to get across.
    3) You yourself also go after all Tea Partiers and Glen Beck all the time over the guy with the guns and all sorts of other things. So again, is it good or bad to do this?

    With that said, Eugene’s often repeated example is a bit of a reach…but he’s not entirely wrong either.

    • http://homebrewedtheology.com Christian

      1) Some do, however I don’t. Eugene is brushing all illegal immigrants with a huge brush with his argument.

      2) My point is that we can use any extreme as an example, doesn’t mean it’s necessarily a valid argument.

      3) I go after Tea Partiers and Glenn Beck because they’re pimping bad theology. Secondly, they’re logically incongruent, and if they’re going to put forth a belief, it should be consistent.

  • Eugene Pando

    Joshua called the argument silly. I didn’t. Why the Lie Christian? It’s my argument that I believe is not silly and I will repeat it as often as I like. You on the other hand cannot because you have said it is silly… unless you want to argue from a position you call silly. So my arguement is silly, but not silly enough for you to try and use against me? Sorry I’m not biting.

    So Christan, I ask again using an argument I believe not to be silly. Pick a number between 1 and 309,975,000 that represents the amount of people you are willing to accept being killed by “illegal” aiens in exchange for whatever benefit you think they bring to the United States. As as of 9/11 the number stands at 45,625 So the number you pick has to be higher than that.

    And if you answer this comment please try and refrain from lying. Because lying is a silly way to argue.

    @Joshua. Did Jesus family migrate Legally or ilegally? Since God cannot sin and migrating ilegally would break a law which would be a sin would God tell Jesus’ family to sin? That would also mean that Jesus himself would have sinned and lost his qualifications for Saviour. So I’m guessing not.

    See Joshua you and Christian are willing to lie to advance an argument. And that’s.. well, just silly.

    • http://homebrewedtheology.com Christian

      Just because you believe your argument isn’t silly doesn’t mean it isn’t. It is, honestly, a logical fallacy.

      Each and every victim is a tragedy in itself, and, quite honestly, I find that using them to score some political point to be beneath contempt.

      I was attempting to show you how blatantly ridiculous your argument is and how easily that failed logic can be applied to just about any circumstance. Plus, I think you’re a little confused on what the definition of “lie” is.

  • http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us Joel

    Eugene, what lie? First, with your argument, we should ban put all Africans back into chattled, because with freedom came an increase in crime, and how many are you willing to see die to end slavery. (Not counting the 600,000 that did). And white people too. Or women.

    Actually, Christ did do a few illegal actions during His time on earth, but then against, your silly notion of illegal and ‘sin’ is, well, silly. Simply because something is illegal, doesn’t make it a sin. You can choose to keep lying to yourself, pretending that you actually know what you are talking about, or you can read your bible.

  • Eugene Pando

    The whole thing is a lie. Conservatives are not against immigrants… illegal immigrants are a whole other story. I find it ironic that Christian calls out Jan Brewer for lying the whole time lying himself.

    • http://homebrewedtheology.com Christian

      How am I lying? I know the conservative line, in some circles, is to simply make something up and repeat it ad nauseum, regardless of whether or not reality supports it.

      Brewer lied. There are no headless bodies. Crime rates have gone down for years. Border crossings are down. Deportations are up.

      Simply put. Reality does not support what Brewer says.

  • http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us Joel

    I have yet to see Christian lie or you respond without ad hom attacks

  • Eugene Pando

    “She’s also stirring up anti-immigrant sentiment in the state…” Lie.

    “With respect to the “Ground Zero Mosque”, there may be a few things you don’t know:
    1.It’s not a mosque
    2.It’s not at Ground Zero…” Lie.

    “How are we honoring our American heritage if we’re not extending the freedoms and rights afforded in the Constitution to all citizens if, by our actions, we’re making exceptions to those very same freedoms and rights?…” Lie

  • mickey

    Joel, I think youre coming around finally. I think you just admitted that blacks, for the most part, cannot handle too much freedom…..at least not without self destructing.

    Seriously, I’m only pickin at you dude. But obviously there is at least SOME truth involved when people say things like that.

    I agree that your often repeated comments are based on some small amount of truth….but the way you present your point is a big reach, in my opinion.

  • Joshua

    Eugene,

    Proported lie #1: I don’t know where you live, but I live in Arizona. And yes, that’s exactly what her actions have been doing.

    Proported lie #2: Park 51, in and of itself, is not a mosque. It does have a meeting hall which can be used in this manner.

    Proported lie #3: That wasn’t a statement, it was a question (denoted by the cane-shaped line with the dot on the bottom at the end of the sentence). And Christian’s right. How can we say we’re the land of the free when we desire to build christian churches anywhere yet restrict where a muslim builds an islamic community center. It’s xenophobic and hypocritical. But then, it’s an age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment) old (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_American_internment) story (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_internment).

  • http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us Joel

    She is stirring it up with her lies about the murderous, ‘everyone’s a drug mule’ illegals.

    It is not a mosque and it is not at Ground Zero therefore those who say it is, is lying.

    Your last quip is just too silly to point out your hate filled rhetoric only shows that you have yet to either read the constitution or the bible.

    Like usual, Mickey, you fail to understand the argument, coming from a very bad and dark place and only want to bring others down with you; therefore I will continue to refuse to engage you in any dialogue.

  • mickey

    OK…so Brewer exaggerated things…..is this a game we really want to play? Are democrats immune to doing this? ALL politicians do it. And they love it when the masses argue over it because it distracts from the real issues.

    Joel, I told you I was kidding. I’m messin with ya. Chill.

    And youre wrong. I do understand the argument. I have no issue with the mosque being built and Brewer did what politicians do. What else is there to understand?

    Dont hate on me for pointing out your comment……it was a racist thing to say. You obviously believe that crime is at least somewhat proportional to “black freedom” because that was your example. Thats racist. If you understood their struggle you wouldnt say things like that.

  • mickey

    I’m very interested in hearing about this “dark place” I come from too. And about those who I want to “bring down”.
    My friend, you have a TERRIBLE misconception about who and what I am.

  • http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us Joel

    No Mickey, there was no racism intended. It was to show that the argument, like your friend Eugene’s, which is borne by many as a means to scare others. It was found in the antebellum South as a protection of Slavery and today as a ‘see I told you so’ of racists. The same exact intellectual place that Eugene comes from and other of the Brewer ilk.

  • mickey

    Maybe racism wasnt intended, but you used as an example to support your argument that crime is proportional to black freedom. That could be taken in many ways. And if you didnt believe that there was at least a hint of truth to it, I doubt you would have used that example.

    You make a huge mistake when you lump me in with anyone, whether it be Eugene, Brewer, R Paul, or anyone else. I think on my own and I am not shy about saying things that I believe. I dont belong to any “groups” who blindly follow each other and accept each others beliefs unconditionally. I support Ron Paul and most of his positions..but that doesnt mean that I have to buy into his entire ideology. I am capable of criticizing him and will do so when its necessary.
    I have yet to hear you criticize anything Obama has done. Has he done anything wrong yet? Anything?
    I have heard Christian criticize an idea he actually agreed with, simply because the Tea Party was supporting it. How crazy is that?

    That kind of thinking and compromising is dangerous.

    I dont like this mosque being built where it is. But I fully support their right to do it. Am I obligated to LIKE it? I support religious freedom. Do you? Are you one of those who gets his panties in a wad when someone says “Merry Christmas”? Do you throw a tantrum when there is a prayer before a high school football game? Does it chap your ass to see a Nativity scene in front of a courthouse? I dont know your opinions on these individual issues I just mentioned. But I do know that opposition to these ideas come from those who share MANY of your beliefs. So, can I lump you in with those people? Would it be right for me to do that?
    The point is that its OK to disagree sometimes with those who you normally agree with. I do it all the time and so should you. Its also OK to agree with those who you normally oppose now and then as well.

  • Eugene Pando

    “…you have yet to either read the constitution or the bible…”…Lie.

    “…like your friend Eugene’s,…” Lie.

  • Joshua

    Eugene, the bible does not state whether Jesus’ family migrated legally or illegally into Egypt. They did, however, skirt the law which required them to submit to their local authority. So if it is a sin to stand up against injustice, then Jesus is the chief of sinners.

  • Eugene Pando

    No. That would be Paul.

  • http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us Joel

    So, in other words…. no defense whatsoever, Eugene.

  • Eugene Pando

    Joshua, show me where Jesus’ family “skirted” the Law to get into egypt.

  • http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us Joel

    First, they broke the law by not allowing their son to be murdered by Herod.

  • Mickey

    “Eugene is brushing all illegal immigrants with a huge brush with his argument.”
    I agree. But youre painting all Tea Partiers with the same brush he’s using. The difference is that you support immigration as it is now apparently and you dont support the Tea Party.

    “Each and every victim is a tragedy in itself, and, quite honestly, I find that using them to score some political point to be beneath contempt. ”
    I’ll keep this in mind next time a “hate crime” is commited.

    “I go after Tea Partiers and Glenn Beck because they’re pimping bad theology. Secondly, they’re logically incongruent, and if they’re going to put forth a belief, it should be consistent.”
    Beck may be pimping bad theology- I wouldnt know. But he certainly has been talking a lot about religion lately which is a turn off.
    So are you saying that every single member of the Tea Party has to agree with the Tea Party on every single issue? I think you already know how crazy that sounds. But it makes for a good writeup when you can find a couple of inconsistencies so I understand. Then again, maybe you DONT think its crazy to believe every thing some group says or does. I’m lead to believe that youre in lock step with the Democrats- or at least the far left wing of the democrats.

    “How am I lying? I know the conservative line, in some circles, is to simply make something up and repeat it ad nauseum, regardless of whether or not reality supports it. ”
    Yep, only conservatives do that. I wonder if anyone has collected the 10K from Breirbart over the alleged spitting incident yet? And thats only one example. I’m certain you dont require a thousand more to get the point that both sides do it.

  • Eugene Pando
  • http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us Joel

    Dang white people, human smugglin. Bet they are ‘Christians’ too. I say, no more white people and no more churches.

  • Christie Grant

    Just wanted to give you a shout from the valley of the sun, great information. Much appreciated.

  • Roy Harrison

    When I originally commented I clicked the “Notify me when new comments are added” checkbox and now each time a comment is added I get four emails with the same comment.

    • http://homebrewedtheology.com Christian

      Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I will look into the issue and work to resolve it.

  • Eugene Pando
    • http://homebrewedtheology.com Christian

      A single instance does not an epidemic make. To claim so is silly. Besides, there’s an awful lot of “if’s, maybe’s, and could’s” in that article…..but don’t let that stop ya from jumping to conclusions.

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    Causality

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    take it easy

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